[Group discussion] ‘Anime isn’t deep. It’s just entertainment.’
It’s the typical retort to the old chestnut “Why are you watching those, um, cartoons?”. You take a bold stance, look *intelligent* and declare: “Because this stuff’s deep.” I mean, what better way to beat down those non-fans than to claim that they don’t ‘get’ it? The biggest hurdle (in my experience anyway) of getting people to actually sit down and appreciate an anime show is to prove that it’s mature, intelligent and fun to watch. Now, the ‘fun’ part isn’t the one that’s hard to prove…giant robots blowing stuff up, samurai and ninja fighting it out with breathtaking, poetic choreography…the likes of Appleseed and Ninja Scroll provide all the action and adventure of a Hollywood movie, they do it well and there’s no harm in that.
In the realms of fandom though, we don’t see mere entertainment as enough somehow. I include myself in this: many of us look beyond the explosions, the swordplay or even the everyday drama or comedy to view certain movies and series above the normal fare you see when you visit the cinema or switch on the TV; the character interactions, the social commentary, the philosophy, you name it. My core argument is this: SOME anime (note the capitals, people) matches the classics of cinema and television in highlighting issues that are scattered along the full spectrum from home truths of the everyday to questioning our place in the universe. Some, but not all, is mature and intelligent. In the same way that Battle Vixens or Legend of the Overfiend can scupper your argument that not all anime is all sex and violence, certain selected titles can prove that Japanese animation can, and does, say a lot about how and why the world is the way it is.
Haibane Renmei: much more than just pretty pictures
There is no reason, none at all, why anime cannot provide more than entertainment in the same way that any other art form can. Let’s face it, when moving images convey an idea or feeling they fall under the definition of ‘art’ by default. Take a frame from a Shinkai movie and you can hang it on your living room wall; yet anime can be more than just pretty pictures. Shinkai’s movies provide an insight into how humans feel and interact at an emotional level but there are other, very different, examples, of anime that fall into the broad category of ‘deep’, providing the expected, ’surface-level’ for the casual audience but including more complex issues for viewers who wish to look for them.
Kino’s Journey: It’s quite profound, you know
The adaptations of Shirow’s Ghost in the Shell combine taught, impressive-looking action sequences but also revisit the musings of Philip K Dick (Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?) and Isaac Asimov (I, Robot) - sadly, some viewers are so engrossed in the Major jumping off buildings half-naked and blasting the heads off terrorists with an assault rifle to notice that Mamoru Oshii is suggesting how A.I. and the exponentially-rising power of computers could affect our lives in the future. Many anime shows address social issues too: Satoshi Kon is (in)famous for his cynical views of the media, fame and the superficial nature of popular culture and historical events such as WWII are brought painfully and eloquently to life by Grave of the Fireflies and Barefoot Gen.
“I’m downloading ani…erm, philosophical musings…”
An additional problem with justifying anime’s ‘depth’ is that some viewers search for meanings in some shows that aren’t there in the first place. After several rewatches, much discussion and reading around, I see the notorious phenomenon of Evangelion as deep - admittedly, the ‘depth’ hides behind fan service, cool mecha designs and technobabble. It’s not deep because of the pseudo-science or freudian philosophy that some claim to divulge from it though; it’s because it gives a very important and profound observation of human nature. That is, facing your responsibilities in life head-on rather than running away from them is less painful and is a sign of emotional maturity. Simple, huh?
The sad fact is, for every anime show or film that has something worthwhile to say, there are countless pieces with less lofty ambitions; those that are designed to look cool and while away a little of your spare time (not to mention help you part with your spare cash) in the same way that ‘mainstream’ film and television does. I’m not saying that this sort of thing has no place on our shelves and screens; my point is, although it is relatively rare (going by numbers of features and franchises available to us as viewers, at any rate) anime can, and sometimes is, more than this. Rare as these are, sit an assorted load of them together and you have yourself a strong case…just don’t blame me if your parents or the guy you’re sitting next to in the pub look at you funny afterwards. I’m an opinionated and pretentious git but most people don’t believe that this level of analysis is healthy outside of a classroom. They maybe right on that one but hey, everyone needs a hobby!
*EDIT*
Full list of related articles for this topic:
- Bateszi
- Drastic My Anime Blog
- Hige Vs Otaku
- That’s Not Kanon
- T.H.A.T. Anime blog
- Cruel Angel Theses ♪
Posted on August 3rd, 2007 @ 8:20 pm
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Posted on August 3rd, 2007 @ 8:52 pm
[...] Others involved in this fiasco include Drastic My Anime Blog, Hige Vs. Otaku, That Animeblog, and The End of the World. Now then, onto the [...]
Posted on August 4th, 2007 @ 12:41 am
[...] Other blogs involved in this debate are: * Bateszi * Drastic My Anime Blog * Heterochromia * Hige Vs Otaku * That’s Not Kanon * T.H.A.T. Anime blog * Cruel Angel Theses ♪ * The End of the World [...]
Posted on August 4th, 2007 @ 4:23 am
The more I read of these entries the more I think it’s becoming a little ridiculous. First, the need to defend the “deepness” of something demonstrates an inferiority complex. It implies that the only art of merit fulfills a certain “deepness,” which no one can really define. Furthermore this deepness (or as I prefer, “Deepiness”) has nothing to do with what makes a great work of art, in anime or any field. Deepiness is an artistic cul-de-sac, a concept used by people trying to out-snob others.
Some attributes of Deep (deepy?) works of art: It must be depressing, or at least sad. It must carry philosophical baggage on its sleeve (others have already pointed this out), or it must deal with hard-hitting social issues of our time. Finally, it “makes you think.” The implication here is that any anime that doesn’t do this is inconsequential, not as important to anime’s reputation in the larger world of art.
Which is complete, utter, bull.
Take the extremely undeepy series Azumanga Daioh. It is not depressing, has no uttered philosophical concepts (apart from the occasional Osaka line), no issues (well, maybe Kimura), and on the surface is “about” nothing whatsoever. Yet if I ever had to defend anime against a detractor this is likely the show I would choose to win them over. It doesn’t matter that I can’t explain the show’s merits in deepy terms. Great art is under no obligation to be deepy. The show stands on its own, even while using some of anime’s most common cliches.
Let’s not be sidetracked! To feel intimidated into proving anime has to have these deepy attributes means you’ve already lost the argument.
Posted on August 4th, 2007 @ 6:03 am
Nothing like a refreshing ad hominem to wake you up.
It’s nice to attack the person writing the piece instead of the piece itself and dismiss it as something not worth for dissection, while masquerading as “opinion”. Brilliant work I’d say.
Which is complete, utter, bull, too!
Posted on August 4th, 2007 @ 6:45 am
I apologize if it came off as a personal attack. I certainly didn’t intend it that way.
I’ve read most of the blog posts in this circle of discussion, but I chose this site for my rant because I’ve enjoyed the posts here and have posted friendly replies once or twice, about Bokurano (a show I adore). I have nothing but respect.
I am attacking no individual, but rather the mindset that a work of art must have certain things in it to be considered important. It’s the wrong way to look at anime, and art in general.
Peter S
Posted on August 4th, 2007 @ 7:12 am
[...] is “deep”, for starters? Some of my other fellow bloggers, like Martin, Bateszi, TheBigN, Higevs, Hidoshi, and Impz might be able to tell you more about it. There’s a [...]
Posted on August 4th, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
[...] (Because I’m such an elitist lamer, I was invited by Owen of Cruel Angel Theses ♪ to take part in this discussion of “anime isn’t deep, it’s just entertainment”. Other enthusiastic contributors include the fine bloggers at Drastic My Anime Blog, Hige Vs. Otaku, That Animeblog, That’s Not Kanon and The End of the World.) [...]
Posted on August 5th, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
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Posted on August 5th, 2007 @ 5:24 pm
@Peter S: Don’t worry, no offence taken - the whole point of the exercise was to start a bit of discussion! I accept your defence that it was a criticism not aimed at me personally but before I get around to reading the other articles properly and writing a follow-up (I’ve been away over the weekend because some important unforseen family commitments occured so I’ve only just returned home to check my messages), I ought to cliarify on one or two points.
While I view some anime as ‘deep’, it’s not intended to attach any superior value to the piece in question. As I said, the likes of Appleseed and Ninja Scroll are really fun to watch, as opposed to some of the titles that I mentioned which are, even I’ll admit, a bit heavy-going when you’re not in the mood for thematic complexity and so on.
I don’t think that ‘deep’ stuff should be intimidating, either (although some people, paticularly the creators, may want it that way!). A film doesn’t have to make you think but if it does, is that such a bad thing? If there are other aspects going in its favour, the ‘deepness’ is merely an additional option the viewer has when watching it. I am in no way implying that if a show is mere entertainment, it is inconsequential: I stated quite clearly (I hope) in my article that there is merit in both approaches to telling a story, and I don’t think some, such as your example of Azu, should be dismissed when they are just great fun to watch.
Perhaps there is an ‘inferiority complex’ among some people who define what makes a ‘deep’ movie but from my experience and perspective, it is a piece that offers something different and more complex than is the norm. It’s not better, it’s just different and my choice of examples were an attempt to reflect that.
Posted on August 6th, 2007 @ 2:40 am
I never thought of anime as “deep”. I have described anime shows as compelling, thought-provoking, interesting, watchable, laugh-inducing, a pain to watch, etc.; but not “deep”. At least not until these whole barrage of posts came up.
I guess I’ll have to include that word from now on. xD
Posted on August 6th, 2007 @ 7:16 am
Happy to hear you weren’t offended. The first reply to my rant took me by surprise, since I was simply trying to put a new slant on things.
But I still feel that trying to find profundity in anime it order to validate it to outsiders isn’t a good idea.
I have nothing against a show that makes you think. As you point out, those instances can come from anywhere; if you watch it and go “hmmm …” that’s a fringe benefit. But while I like both Eva and GitS, they’ve never made me do that, even though they were intended to.
Maybe when you TRY to make a deep work of art, you’re probably going to fail. Your message overwhelms the artwork itself … Nah, I don’t buy that …
Posted on August 6th, 2007 @ 10:43 am
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Posted on February 28th, 2008 @ 10:07 am
This is a great conversation. I’ve been struggling with the issue of anime and “intellectual credibility” or “deepness” or whatever myself. I do disagree with Peter S on some points though.
Although it’s subjective, I think “depth” IS definable. To me, “depth” is provided by serious, philosophical/socio-political/psychological content. “Deep” anime explores this content, offers some kind of insight and/or stimulates thought about it. Deep content is usually accompanied by a darker mood or tone, but not always (see Dennou Coil ep.12 for humorous commentary on the human condition). That’s my abridged definition.
There are certainly some anime that are “deep” and I consider that a good thing. From what I see in literature, “deep” and dark stories are better at generating brainwave activity in the audience. Henry James’ “Daisy Miller” seems frivolous enough, but it is a searing social commentary culminating in death (pretty dark).
The quality of a series like Azumanga Daioh comes not from any particularly brilliant message… it’s in the artful presentation of otherwise lack-luster everyday content. The well-executed presentation of character and story is a kind of “depth” but I wouldn’t call Azumanga a “deep” anime. It’s “artfully” rendered.
So “depth” is defined by content, and “artfulness” is defined by presentation. I think Peter S is arguing against shows that are “deep” but not “artful”, meanwhile promoting anime that are “artful” without the depressing atmosphere that usually accompanies “depth”. If this is the case, I can agree in full. You can’t just chuck “deep” content into a story and call it intellectual. Also, you’ve no right to discuss GitS’s “depth” if all you care about is the Major’s physique. (Personally, I loved the episode where the Tachikomas have an existential debate over their own artificial intelligence, though it sprained my brain.)
However, I have no qualms about arguing that some anime is deep. Most non-anime-watchers have a stereotyped shallow impression of anime. I don’t think arguing for “deepness” is part of an inferiority complex at all. Rather, I believe the misunderstanding is real and that people regularly underestimate the depth as well as the artfulness of anime.
On the other hand, I don’t have any words of defense for “pantsu-anime” *Rosariocoughvampire*, and I have a moral bias against harem anime (in the most literal sense of the label). Some anime is pure entertainment… and most of it is garbage.
In general, I cherish an anime that is both “deep” and “artful” more than an anime that is just “artful”. For this reason, Dennou Coil is a sure winner. The content is truly deep, but it doesn’t get bogged down in emo-ness. It’s very sincere and well crafted.
Thanks for reading,
- DuhProductions
Posted on April 10th, 2008 @ 8:20 am
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